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· Retired Mod
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
to crush a person to death? We're talking a grown man, lying on a steel plate, being crushed by another steel plate. How much would that top plate have to weigh?

Discussion at work right now is 1,000 pounds to fatally crush someone. Is it more? Less?

Post up bitches!
 

· Retired Mod
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
and in my quest to find the answer, I stumbled across this:


Martial Arts Mythology



There is a great deal of bullshit regarding hand-to-hand combat that is commonly believed to be true . . . even by a few respected instructors who really ought to know better. The majority of these myths involve "deadly karate moves" which allegedly enable a martial artist to kill a man with a single blow, and are passed from student to student like a virus being replicated. Due to the fact that the vast majority of martial artists have never been placed in a situation where it is permissible to actually implement such techniques, and also due to the fact that most martial artists have never studied human anatomy at the college level, it is understandable that people who ought to know better are ignorant of such things. Hollywood action films and imported kung-fu flicks perpetuate such legendary falsehoods. In this section, I shall attempt to debunk a few of the cherished fantasies of the dojo ballerinas.

1.) "YOU CAN KILL A MAN BY JAMMING HIS NASAL BONES INTO THE BRAIN!":
Up until the late 1980's most martial artists believed this without question, but then several articles appeared in various martial arts magazines which disproved it. According to legend, a forceful palm heel strike or shuto chop delivered up under the nostrils would force nasal bones into the brain. The nose is constructed primarily of pliable cartilage. There is a bit of bone high on the bridge of the nose, but upon examination of a human skull you can see that there is no way this bone can be forced inside the cranium. Some martial artists say that a properly delivered chop to the bridge of the nose will generate a "shock wave" that causes a "chain reaction" ultimately resulting in bone within the cranium splintering and lacerating the brain (although such an event is highly unlikely). In order to have a reasonable chance of killing someone via this method, it would be necessary to either deliver a forceful horizontal strike to the bridge of the nose with a multi-celled aluminum flashlight, or to repeatedly smash a fallen opponent’s face onto the corner of a curb.

2.) "YOU CAN CRACK A MAN’S SKULL BY HITTING HIM IN THE TEMPLE!":
For some reason, many people believe that the temples are the thinnest part of the cranium and easily broken. People tend to believe this without question due to the fact that there is a slight depression at either temple, and they are somewhat sensitive to pressure due to the nerve clusters there. However, upon examination of a bisected human skull, you can clearly see that the temple areas are not significantly thinner than the rest of the skull. Furthermore, live bone tissue is highly impervious to damage, and the rounded shape of the cranium gives it incredible resistance against breakage. The backhand strike is typically recommended for delivering this "lethal" blow, but a backhand strike has virtually no chance of fracturing a skull (unless directed at an invalid with osteoperosis, or a toddler whose cranial plates have not yet fused). In order to kill a man with this strike, it is best to use a ballpeen hammer.

3.) "YOU CAN JAM YOUR FINGERS INTO A MAN’S BRAIN THROUGH THE EYE SOCKET!":
Most martial artists believe this one. Some writers have even gone so far as to describe the bone forming the eye socket as "eggshell thin" and easily broken. Upon examination of a human skull, it is evident that the eye socket has only a small hole at the back to accommodate the optic nerve. Although the eye socket is one of the weakest areas of the cranium, it is still incredibly difficult to break — you are far more likely to break your fingers than to crack through the eye socket. If an incredibly strong man were to use his thumbs to gouge forcefully into the eyes of a smaller opponent (who was held immobile with his head against the floor), it is theoretically possible for this move to actually work. However, you would have a far better chance of executing this technique properly if you were to use a screwdriver.

4.) "A PALM HEEL STRIKE TO THE SOLAR PLEXUS CAN BREAK OFF THE BOTTOM OF THE STERNUM AND DRIVE IT INTO THE HEART!":In theory, a powerful palm heel strike to the lower chest area can fracture a projection of bone known as the "xiphoid process," possibly detaching it and allowing it to puncture an internal organ (most likely the liver). However, this vestigial projection is only found in approximately one third of the world’s population.

5.) "BY FOCUSING YOUR CHI, YOU CAN KILL A MAN BY STRIKING CERTAIN PRESSURE POINTS!":The legendary "death touch" (also known as "poison finger" or dim mak) supposedly enables a master to shut down various chi meridians by attacking certain accupuncture points at specific times of the day. Chi (bioenergy) has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to exist, although scientists do not fully understand how it works. Accupuncture has been proven to manipulate chi. Furthermore, martial artists specializing in "combat taijiquan," or pressure point targeting, have given even more credibility to the legend of the death touch. Several authors have written books allegedly explaining how to implement the death touch, and there have even been public demonstrations of masters inducing unconsciousness with a single light touch, or shattering a single brick chosen at random in a stack. However, it takes years to gain even basic proficiency at manipulating the chi of others, and there has never been a credible documented account of a dim mak technique having been executed successfully versus an opponent. Ancient accounts of the "delayed death touch" invariably can be attributed to slow death from ruptured organs or internal hemorrhaging. Don’t even consider wasting your time training at something that will not work.

6.) "A MASTER CAN ACTUALLY RIP A MAN’S HEART OUT!":
This is highly unlikely. Theoretically, after spending years conditioning one’s hands by thrusting them into kettles of hot sand, a master can use a "spearhand" or "shovelhand" attack to actually penetrate an opponent’s abdomen (flesh, muscle, viscera, ect.) and grasp his heart muscle, tearing it free. References to this legendary attack are generally considered little more than fables, but it is possible that a royal executioner of the ancient Orient was able to successfully use this technique versus frail individuals (who would’ve first been properly immobilized) as a public demonstration. In order for this technique to work, the executioner’s hands would have to be so heavily conditioned that he would lose much of his manual dexterity, resulting in his being so crippled that he would be unable to perform many simple tasks without assistance. Martial artists rarely condition their hands to such a level today, and there has never been a credible account of this technique ever actually having been used (outside of countless martial arts films).

7.) "YOU CAN TEAR A MAN’S THROAT OUT WITH YOUR BARE HANDS!":This, too, is highly unlikely, although more probable than ripping out a heart. The windpipe (more properly, the larnyx and upper portion of the trachea) is protected by cartilage in the front and tendons on either side. While the windpipe is far more accessible than the heart, it would be nearly impossible to extract it from an opponent with a snatch of one’s hand. Indeed, it would even be extraordinarily difficult to implement this technique on a cadaver, regardless of how powerful one’s hands were. It would be far more effective to simply execute a standard hand attack (such as a chop) to this area.

8.) "ONCE YOU HIT A MAN IN THE THROAT, THE FIGHT IS OVER!":
There are no guarantees in a streetfight. True, a crushing blow to the throat is a killing blow, but it must be delivered with great force to be truly effective. A light blow may cause choking and retching, or it may have no discernable result at all. If you hit a man in the throat with an inadequate blow, you can reasonably expect him to feel justified in killing you through whatever means necessary. Never hit someone in the throat unless you intend to kill them, and if that is your intent you need to strike as hard as possible — and preferably with a weapon.
9.) "YOU CAN DEFEAT ANY OPPONENT BY STICKING YOUR FINGER IN THEIR EYE!":
If you succeed in rupturing the eye globe of your opponent, that will stop over 90% of all fights — in the remaining percentile, your opponent will suddenly go batshit and attempt to chew your face off. Generally, the eyes are an excellent target; however, it is difficult to actually rupture the eye unless you are using your thumbs and have long nails. The eye is flexible and resilient, and will resist being burst. Raking and jabbing attacks to the eyes generally result in irritation, abrasion, or minor lacerations to the outer surface of the eye (or the eyelid), which can be distracting and painful, but seldom result in permanent blindness (unless infection sets in). The fact that your opponent will momentarily be disconcerted (and have blurred vision) will not instantly stop a fight, but may give you opportunity to either escape or land several more blows.

 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
10.) "IF YOU SLAP BOTH OF YOUR OPPONENT’S EARS, THE AIR PRESSURE WILL KILL HIM!":
Supposedly, if you were to cup both hands and slam them over someone’s ears, the trapped air would burst both eardrums and rupture the cerebral cortex, resulting in massive hemorrhaging and death. This will not happen. It is possible that one (or both) of the eardrums will indeed burst in the event this strike were delivered properly, which would result in partial (or total) deafness, some minor bleeding, and a great deal of pain. In some instances unconsciousness could result, but death would be highly unlikely. This strike is difficult to implement due to the fact that both ears must be struck simultaneously and accurately — such a move would be simple to block and would leave one wide open for a counter-attack. It would be far more practical to attack a single ear if the opportunity presented itself. This move is best implemented in a grappling situation.

11.) "THE VULCAN NERVE PINCH REALLY WORKS!":If you were to tightly squeeze a weak person’s trapezius muscle near where the shoulder connects with the neck, they would likely wince in pain and beg for you to stop. If you have strong hands and were able to dig your fingertips into the brachial nerve, the arm on that side might even go numb. If, however, you were to try such a move on a man with above average muscular development, he would probably laugh in your face before slapping you upside the head. This move will not work on persons with firm muscles or a high pain tolerance — which excludes all potential attackers except grade-school bullies and surly nursing home residents! If you try to use this move in a fight you truly deserve to get your ass kicked.

12.) "IF SOMEONE GRABS YOU FROM BEHIND, JUST STOMP ON THEIR FOOT AND THEY’LL LET YOU GO!":Many "self-defense manuals" allege that the metatarsals above the arch of the foot are easily crushed by a stomping blow and the pain will make your attacker instantly release you . . . this is nonsense. If you are wearing rubber-soled sneakers or a pair of loafers, the potential impact of any kick will be significantly cushioned. If, however, you were wearing heavy boots with stacked heels, and your attacker was only wearing sandals, this move could prove quite effective. Unless you are wearing proper footwear and really know how to stomp hard, your assailant will probably ignore your struggling.

13.) "JUST KICK ‘EM WHERE IT HURTS!":A kick to the groin can stop a fight when properly applied, but it is very difficult to hit the testicles of a moving target with a standard snap-kick. Furthermore, most men will diligently guard this area, as they’ll instinctively expect an attack there — especially when confronting a woman. Not only are the testicles a relatively small target, but kicks (as well as knee strikes) are easily blocked by a simple shifting of the hips. When you strike the testicles, there is usually a delay of several seconds before the pain begins to be felt — and the same amount of pain that might curl one man up on the floor whimpering will throw another man into a murderous rage. The groin is best attacked by knee strikes, shin strikes, and hand attacks (and can be struck from the rear as well).

14.) "IF YOU JAM YOUR THUMBS INTO A MAN’S ARMPITS YOU CAN KNOCK HIM OUT!":
Many years ago, a woman was accosted by a deviate who decided to grab her. As she struggled to free herself, she pushed him away by shoving her hands up under his arms — and for some unknown reason he suddenly passed out. She called the police, who arrested him, and the newspapers reported her account of the incident. Soon afterwards, a few self-defense manuals began advising people to attack the "pressure points" in the armpits for similar results. Although there are blood vessels, lymph nodes, and nerve clusters there, it is unlikely that an attack to this area would be anything more than uncomfortable (unless delivered with a knife). Do not expect someone to pass out just because you poked them in the armpits.

15.) "A SPINNING KICK TO THE HEAD WILL LAY OUT NEARLY ANYONE!":
I agree . . . nearly anyone who attempts a high kick to an adversary’s head in a real fight can reasonably expect to get knocked on their ass. High kicks are slower (and weaker) than any other attack and are easily blocked — even by an amateur. Most people would simply grab your ankle and kick you in the groin. Many expert martial artists who are capable of firing off fast, powerful, and accurate kicks to an opponent’s head in competition have stated that they would never use high kicks in an actual fight — in the movies, they jump off trampolines and kick at stuntmen who are paid to fall down. Never attempt a kick to your opponent’s head unless he’s already been knocked to the ground.
16.) "THE DEVASTATING FLYING SIDE KICK WILL DROP ANY OPPONENT!":
A properly executed flying side kick (with a running start) generates an incredible amount of force. It is one of the few attacks that can literally blow a man off his feet, and can easily crack several ribs at once; however, your intent to execute this move will be telegraphed to your opponent quicker than if you chose to use a haymaker with full roundup (a wild punch commonly seen among drunkards lacking formal martial arts training). As you are charging at your opponent and begin your leap, even an untrained fighter will instinctively step out of the way or attempt to defect your attack with some sort of haphazard blocking — and he will have plenty of time to do so. The flying side kick, an impressive technique favored by Hollywood directors (as well as students of savate and tae kwon do), is best implemented versus an inebriated opponent from behind, with your target of choice being the middle of the spine.

17.) "THE HEADBUTT IS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL WEAPONS IN YOUR ARSENAL!":True, the headbutt can do an incredible amount of damage to an opponent due to the fact that the cranium is quite solid and this attack usually is a complete surprise, however, it is often used incorrectly, sometimes resulting in injury to the initiator. An untrained fighter may attempt to charge an opponent head-first, intending to drive the top of his head into his opponent’s solar plexus as if he were engaged in a game of rugby — this highly telegraphed move puts one at extreme risk of receiving a boot in the teeth. Other types of improperly executed headbutts can result in concussion, neck injuries, or even a fractured skull, all of which could have serious complications. In order to be most effective, the headbutt must be directed at the face of an opponent, with the intent being to crush the nose and cause momentary disorientation (the neck should be kept stiff, and one should push off with the legs). Headbutts are best delivered with the back of the head versus an attacker grasping one from behind.

18.) "IT IS A SIMPLE MATTER TO SNAP AN OPPONENT’S NECK!":It is true that there are about a half-dozen different ways to snap a man’s neck (with the likely result being paralysis or death), but the majority of these methods require a surprise attack from behind (after first having engaged in plenty of practice). Neck breaking techniques are best implemented by a very strong man versus a much weaker adversary who is struggling helplessly, otherwise they are extremely difficult to perform. Neck snaps are typically a "finishing move" used on a fallen opponent who is either unconscious or too exhausted to defend himself, hence, they have no reasonable application to the study of self-defense. In our society, performing a finishing move on a helpless individual is known as "murder," and carries stiff penalties.

 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
As you can clearly see, there is a grain of truth to most of these myths, but that does not dispel the fact that these moves will not perform as advertised. If a martial arts student is relying upon one of these untested "death strikes" to protect him in a worst case scenario, and is actually placed in circumstances where it is necessary for him to use deadly force to protect himself from harm, what do you think will happen when his "never-fail-ultimate-fight-stopping-blow" doesn’t work? If our student strikes an assailant with an attack guaranteed to "drop any man," and he simply shrugs it off, what do you think will happen to his confidence level? Will he become doubtful? Frightened? Maybe even momentarily paralyzed? How will this affect his ability to defend himself?

You need to be aware that there are no guarantees in a streetfight. Moves should be simple and efficient. It is highly unlikely that you will drop your opponent with a single blow, and you will probably sustain injuries yourself. If you are facing multiple opponents and are unarmed, fleeing is probably your best option (if possible). A streetfight, where the risk of being maimed or killed is quite high, is no place to experiment with untested techniques (with the exception of biting, gouging, and joint destruction), nor is it the place to impress onlookers with your mastery of the "jump-spinning-back-kick-to-the-head."

Engaging in a fight can result in serious consequences (medical, legal, social, etc.). When you are forced to defend yourself versus a man intent on inflicting serious injuries upon your person, it is a grave situation not to be taken lightly — someone is going to be hurt, and it could very well be you. Over-confidence in one’s abilities is a weakness, and underestimating one’s opponent can lead to your downfall. If he is bigger and stronger than you (as most attackers generally tend to select victims they perceive as weaker than themselves), you can reasonably expect to be hurt. If, prior to the event, you had only engaged in "light-contact" sparring with full padding, a broken nose can be quite a shock.

Self-defense is not an "art," nor is it anything like the exciting choreographed fight sequences one watches on television . . . it is a brutal, painful, terrifying, and ultimately degrading experience. After the fight is over, the "hero" will probably need to visit the emergency room, after which he may face the possibility of criminal charges, lawsuits, and character assassination by the media (as well as others). It is possible that your attacker will be portrayed as "misunderstood" and hostile witnesses (who may not even have actually been present) may give false testimony to the police (and later, the court) stating that you were the initial aggressor! Any martial-arts training you may have, or the fact that serious injuries were inflicted upon your opponent, will be used by prosecutors to show that you are a "violent" man who should be incarcerated for the protection of society. Reality can be a bitch. For these reasons, it is best to avoid physical altercations through whatever means necessary. Fighting (especially with strangers) should never be taken lightly.




Taken from: http://www.righteouswarriortemple.org/New%20Folder/myths.htm
 

· K-Series Legend
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I think that it would vary and which way are you crushing someone? Vertically or horizontally? I the 2 surface areas would be toally different sizes. You would have to distribute enough force upon that mass to crush the person...
 

· The Almighty
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umm, car crusher would do it... but as far as weight, i think it would depend on the individual, cuz ive seen a car fall on a friend, and it didnt crush him
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
OK. Let's use RJ for a hypothetical case study.

5'7", 160 pound, 25 year old, adult male (since we are being hypothetical here)

Average bone density and musculature structure. Lying flat on his stomach wearing his his usual Birkenstocks, Peace Frog T-shirt and chinos. No fanny pack today, he left it at home.

My math sucks but I know there are some equations involved here.
 

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I am going out on a limb here, I think it would take a lot more than 1,000 lbs to crush a person.
I mean you lay RJ down on his belly then begin to apply pressure and do not stop until the metal plate is within 1/2" of the ground. You are looking at around 5k plus.

Just look at it like this:
You are driving down the road and you hit a deer, the deer breaks a bone or two but does not get squished. Now I know that there is not force on the other side of the deer but still the damage to the deer is minimal. Same thing with hitting a bird. Yes it kills the bird but it does not squish it.

To pop a person like a zit would take a lot of pressure. This would be a good submission to mythbusters. lol

So I did some searching and found these.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_pressure_does_it_take_to_crush_a_femur_bone

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2007/sincity.shtml

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=696481

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5931795-description.html

Human bones can actually resist 40 times more stress than concrete. (Picture a piece of concrete the size of a bone, and imagine how easily it would break.)
http://www.newtonsapple.tv/TeacherGuide.php?id=1297
 

· Banned
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OK. Let's use RJ for a hypothetical case study.

5'7", 160 pound, 25 year old, adult male (since we are being hypothetical here)

Average bone density and musculature structure. Lying flat on his stomach wearing his his usual Birkenstocks, Peace Frog T-shirt and chinos. No fanny pack today, he left it at home.

My math sucks but I know there are some equations involved here.
LOLOL fukk u clint... LMAO :lmaopperfinalyi5:
 

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on a serious note... i think most of you guys have a point.

it would be hard to "crush" somebody technically. i believe that you will not die directly because you are crushed, but the impact itself will cause massive destruction to your body. i.e. organs getting fukked up and bones getting fractured and whatnot. this might leave to internal bleeding and shit.

so technically you don't die cause of the pressure, but you will die of complications causing from it.

hope im making any sense here. since i'm the one dying in ur diagrams and all.
 

· Retired Mod
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
LOL - the whole point of this is to determine the tensile strength of the human body to withstand a crushing pressure that is not kinetically delivered. Why we got on the subject of this I don't know, but I'm curious.
 
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